Statistics on Ohio education at the end
I agree that the best and the brightest should be admitted. How we assess
these qualities is what makes it a difficult concept to digest. There are many
studies which show consistently that minorities do not do as well as whites and
asians on standard exams--from PSAT's on up. Why is this and why does it persist
even with those minorities who are from middle-class backgrounds? Until we can
answer this question, and I believe it behooves we minority folk to begin the
research in this area, I cannot "get behind"
the idea that the MCAT, SAT, GRE or any other exam really tells me WHO the
best and brightest are! I do agree that schools can better assess who is most likely to serve in under served communities by asking very specific
questions is this regard and this should help only if the school also has
some way to bring in students whose scores may be lower than some
others. And lastly, the best and brightest at what? I can't tell you the
number of students I've met over the years who are so very "book" bright,
but lack good common sense! Lolita
Lolita A. Wood-Hill
City College of CUNY
Deputy Director, Program in Premedical Studies
Coordinator, Post Baccalaureate Premedical Certificate Program
J-529 138th Street @ Convent Ave.
New York, NY 10031
(212) 650-7845
woodhill@sci.ccny.cuny.edu
From: Lynn Durel, Ph.D. [mailto: ldurel@MIAMI.EDU ]
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 6:52 PM
> To: HLTHPROF@LIST.MSU.EDU
> Subject: affirmative action discussion
>
> Colleagues,
May I ask, please, that political opinions not get petty? May we agree to disagree?
What follows is long, and perhaps contentious. Please be forewarned. Intrigued by this thread, I went back to read what Linda Chavez wrote. It appears that the 3,500 applicants she refers to represent more than one year of applicants. Earlier in the piece, she cites data for the years 1996 to 1999. So, I believe that the later point is meant to refer to a multi-year study her group did. Perhaps her numbers are not misinformation, but her frame of reference was not made clear later.
More important, we may be talking past each other in another way. In a concern for fairness, some suggest that _all_ "qualified" applicants should be accepted into medical school. But, some are also showing that quite a few qualified applicants may not be willing to serve in under-served areas anyway. And, very important, what is the ethics of encouraging more higher degree recipients than there are jobs for? This is already a problem for many Ph.D. recipients who cannot find decent jobs. There are not residencies for more med school graduates than we now have. In fact, the federal gov. is cutting back on funding for residencies. So, wishing for more applicants to get into med school without considering the entire situation is not helpful, I think.
In addition, I suggest that those who disagree with affirmative action for professional schools are not necessary mean-spirited people. Some prefer to promote quality education for all at earlier levels of education.
Frankly, I advise and teach far too many "affirmative action" students who are not prepared to do well in college (especially in pre-professional curricula); most do so poorly that they never make it to the level of "qualified" for professional school. It would be far better to keep them in high school settings until they are academically well prepared, I believe. I think we do them a disservice to continue "promoting" them when they will not be able to perform well at the next level of schooling.
The matter is not just that there are minority students who want to serve as physicians (or other professionals) for poor people. As others have noted, in order to become licensed in a profession in this country, people must pass a standardized test. Earlier standard scores are the best predictors of later standard test scores. So, it makes sense to teach minority students early how to read and think better so they can perform better on tests, in schools, AND in professions. I am not suggesting "teaching to the tests;"
I am arguing for sophisticated reading and thinking. I am arguing for helping students earlier so that they don't have to compete unfairly later. I think that affirmative action for professional school is often unfairness itself for less well prepared minority students!
My conclusion is that this is a very complex issue. I hope we are not assuming that other opinions are wrong or mean-spirited. Thanks for listening.
Lynn A. Durel, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Psychology
University of Miami
-----Original Message-----
From: Stach, Robert [SMTP:bobstach@UMFLINT.EDU]
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 11:40 AM
To: HLTHPROF@LIST.MSU.EDU
Subject: Re: affirmative action discussion
I think Lynn has given a very reasoned and intelligent response to this important question. We haven't as yet, it appears, really addressed the issue of better preparation throughout the entire educational system from kindergarten through college. With better preparation, would affirmative action still be necessary?. One final point, just because a person is a minority individual and states that he/she wants to serve the poor, doesn't mean they will do that once the receive their MD's. They may find that they have different interests once the have gone through medical school.
Robert W. Stach, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Chemistry
University of Michigan-flint
E-mail: bobstach@umflint.edu
From: Paris, Deborah [mailto: dparis@MAIL.AS.MIAMI.EDU ]
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 4:08 PM
To: HLTHPROF@LIST.MSU.EDU
Subject: Re: affirmative action discussion
Four things,
First...... Of course we want to begin (and have begun) better preparation
earlier in the pipeline. This is a long and challenging process because it
requires resources and support where it has been lacking. In the meantime
something needs to be done to see that this very population which
continually receives the short end of the stick receives adequate health
care.
Who can argue that with better preparation of all our citizens the need for
affirmative action will decline? How about the two pronged approach?
Second...... It has been posited that physicians tend to practice in the
types of communities from which they come. No one expects that this will
prevail in 100% of cases, but the odds favor this. Enter a hispanic
neighborhood here in Miami and note the ethnic origin of the doctors there.
(Every other month someone is arrested for practicing medicine without a
license, such is the shortage.)
Third...... We have to trust medical school admissions committees to do more
than ask "are you planning to practice in underserved communities?" I tell
my students that they have to demonstrate through what they do and what they
have done (not just over a particular weekend), their humanistic orientation
and their professional intentions. "If you are the type of young person who
continually responds to the less fortunate in the community and the needy
then you may be the type of doctor who responds to the ............"
Four ......I am sure that medical school admissions committees often admit
none minority applicants who they believe through their actions and
experiences, will practice in underserved communities. Nobody suggests that
they be overlooked.
Deborah Paris, Director
Pre-medical Advising
Post-Baccalaureate Program
College of Arts and Sciences
208 Ashe Building
P.O. Box 248004
Coral Gables, Florida 33124
305-284-5176
305-284-4686 Fax
Being a faculty member and involved in the medical admissions committee at a
medical school for the first half of my career, your assumption of trusting is
not, in my opinion, on very solid ground. In addition, the major criterion for
many of those students in medical school for their choice of career options, is
the amount of money they can make. I realize that my experiences are limited to
only one medical school, but I don't believe that this medical school is that
abnormal. Whether or not one sees many of the same ethnic groups practicing in a
given area, something similar to one in which they have grown up, is not
relevant to the assumption that people will necessarily practice there. Many
people do, but so do people of different ethnicity. I remember a situation where
we were deciding on whether or not a minority student should graduate. One of
the physicians on the promotion committee stated that "I would never go to this
person as a physician, but he is going to
practice in the inner city." This is unconscionable as an attitude. My point is
that it is not appropriate to make an assumption that a given person making a
statement on an application or in the interview of what they will do when they
become an MD. Once they become an MD, they can do whatever and go wherever they
want. This definitely should not be then the basis for accepting to medical
school. If Ms. Chavez's article is partly correct and my experience on the
promotion committee mentioned above, people in the underserved areas may not be
receiving very good medicine and it may even be worse than not having a
physician. As the old saying states--someone becomes ill, goes to a physician,
gets medication, and becomes well in seven days. Someone becomes ill, doesn't go
to a physician, doesn't get medication, and becomes well in a week.
Robert W. Stach, Ph.D.
Professor
Department of Chemistry
University of Michigan-Flint
E-Mail: bobstach@umflint.edu
Phone: 810-762-3111
Chavez noted at
http://www.uh.edu/admin/media/topstories/che121901tamadmit.htm
Robert, fundamentally I do not disagree with what you say which is
why I mentioned that " No one expects that this will prevail in 100% of
cases, but the odds favor this." and "We have to trust medical school
admissions committees to do more than ask "are you planning to practice in
underserved communities?" I didn't say blindly trust. A student's record
should support this attestation and I repeat " I am sure that medical school
admissions committees often admit none minority applicants who they believe
through their actions and experiences, will practice in underserved
communities. Nobody suggests that
they be overlooked.
I think it unfair to suggest that minority students admitted to
medical school using broader criteria in addition to acceptable GPA and MCAT
scores are inferior physicians only fit to practice on the disadvantaged.
That comment ""I would never go to this person as a physician, but he is
going to practice in the inner city." could equally be applied to some of
the bright but insensitive students I see admitted to medical school.
Deborah Paris, Director
Pre-medical Advising
Post-Baccalaureate Program
College of Arts and Sciences
208 Ashe Building
P.O. Box 248004
Coral Gables, Florida 33124
305-284-5176
305-284-4686 Fax
One of the things that fails to come up in these discussions is about the
number of minority applicants WHO DO NOT GET ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL
SCHOOL! And there are many--some are not in any way qualified, as there
are many majority students who also fit into this category. Many are not
admitted because they have made poor choices of schools to apply to, they
apply very late because of financial woes, and many don't get in because
the "numbers" are just not there. Linda Chavez does all minority students
a disservice by not addressing this issue. Her article makes it seem as if
there is a minority student accepted for every majority student who is
rejected. Clearly this is incorrect. More importantly, she does not talk
about the number of SUCCESSFUL minority physicians and medical students who
came in with lower MCAT scores and GPA's.
For this current discussion, I wish we had enough money to raise the
educational standard for every student in the country. And yes, I too have
a problem with assuming that a minority student should feel obligated to
practice in the inner city. Choices should be available to
ALL! Affirmative action would not be needed if every child had the
education that right now, only money seems to supply. Initiatives for
science enrichment programs at the middle school and high school level have
been uneven in their successes? Why? Many do not have enough money to
make a substantial difference in the inferior education these kids are
getting. And we will see more problems in this area for majority students
as well as the technological divide widens among the poor and the rural
populations of this country.
Medical schools all know that there are many more qualified students than
seats to train. The decision to admit must, in part, try to address the
issues of health care in this country. Affirmative action helps in this and
until we can fix the educational problems in this country I can't think of
a better way to handle the current situation. And therefore, picking only
those with big MCAT scores and GPA's cannot assure us that only the "best
and brightest" will be chosen.
Lolita
Lolita wrote:
>Initiatives for science enrichment programs at
>the middle school and high school level have
>been uneven in their successes. Why? Many
>do not have enough money to make a substantial >difference in the inferior
education these kids
>are getting. And we will see more problems in
>this area for majority students as well as the
>technological divide widens among the poor
>and the rural populations of this country.
You are 100% correct that the quality of secondary education is at risk for
students of all ethnicities, rural and urban. There is a shortage of qualified
science and mathematics teachers, and it is expected to worsen for at least the
next decade. It is a seller's market for good teachers, and the available
candidates will understandably choose the schools that can offer decent salary
and benefits, decent facilities, and decent working conditions including safety
and student discipline.
If we want an equitable share of underrepresented ethnicities in the
professions, first fix the middle schools and high schools that serve them.
Joseph H. Lechner, Ph.D.
Professor of Chemistry
Mount Vernon Nazarene College
800 Martinsburg Road
Mount Vernon, OH 43050-9500
[740] 397-9000 extension 3211
Colleagues,
It strikes me, as this discussion proceeds, that affirmative action as a
political remedy for social injustice is simply not the precision tool
that its inventors imagined it might be.
It is as if a surgeon recognizes a problem and reaches into her kit bag
for a scalpel but finds only a chisel. Because the problem is major and
the remedy is urgent she uses the chisel for lack of a more precise tool.
Critics of her surgery begin attacking her and defenders rally. Some
ardent defenders act as if affirmative action is a scalpel, or even a
surgical laser. Some strident critics act as if affirmative action is a
chainsaw or a 12 pound mallet. In truth, as the surgeon gropes around for
better tools, all she finds is an assortment of screwdrivers and putty
knives and the patient languishes. Maybe affirmative action is almost as
good as a fine pocket knife and maybe it is closer to a rasp file, but
people of good will and conscience can still agree that the patient (that
means a society in which justice and fairness prevail) needs help.
Norm Engstrom
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, Illinois
Backyard Learning 9/30/2001
I support the motion of Dan and others to learn about, and do something
about, health needs in our own back yard.
Several of our students have spent time volunteering at charitable inner-city
ministries. During their experience they lived in temporary housing that was
provided for low-income residents. During the day they made house calls on
people in the neighborhood, many elderly, who could not or would not come to the
clinics. They were trained to take blood pressure and simple medical histories.
If a person was seriously ill, the volunteer made arrangements to transport him
/ her to the clinic. The main cost for the pre-med student was food during the
2-3 week experience. Major benefits included a new compassion for people, a
renewed sense of calling, and first hand experience with the needs and the
frustrations of low-income Americans.
Joseph H. Lechner, Ph.D.
Professor of Chemistry
Mount Vernon Nazarene College
800 Martinsburg Road
Mount Vernon, OH 43050-9500
[740] 397-9000 extension 3211
Thought this was interesting enough to send it along to all. This is probably
indicative of test scores nationally and is the reason for my continued belief
that without affirmative action we would have few students of color in medical
school! Lolita
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/10048698192732956.xml
Test scores reveal width of racial gap
Stephen Ohlemacher
Plain Dealer Reporter
11/04/01
The gap in test scores between black and white students in Ohio is wide,
pervasive and persistent.
Black students as a group consistently score lower on standardized tests than
their white counterparts in wealthy and poor school districts alike, in Ohio and
throughout the country. And while the gap has narrowed slightly in some
subjects, it has remained wide on national tests since President Johnson first
tried to tackle the issue in the 1960s.
But until this year, Ohioans have largely been unaware of how big the gap is
among students in the state. Ohio students stopped taking the most comprehensive
national tests in the 1990s, and this is the first year the state has released
computerized racial data on the Ohio Proficiency Tests. The latest data
available are for the 1999-2000 school year.
The numbers are alarming.
For example, 64.3 percent of white fourth-graders in Ohio passed the reading
proficiency test in 1999-2000. Only 29.7 percent of black students passed.
The gap among fourth-graders is just as wide in math, science and citizenship.
It is smaller on the writing test - 60.5 percent of black students passed,
compared with 81.6 percent of whites.
"The gap exists at the state level, the district level and at the classroom
level," said Susan Tave Zelman, state superintendent of public instruction.
"Ohio is certainly not going to be unique in talking about it, but I would like
to be unique in solving it."
Statewide comparisons for Hispanic students in Ohio are unreliable because
Hispanics make up only 1.3 percent of public school students. In districts with
large Hispanic populations, such as Lorain, test scores appeared to fit the
national trend: Hispanic students as a group scored slightly better than black
students, but well below white students.
Demand for data
The issue is getting attention in Ohio mainly because black lawmakers and
community leaders demanded the release of the data.
State law prevented racial data from being included on the state academic report
cards until this year. Some lawmakers thought the data would create negative
stereotypes about black students, Zelman said. The data will, for the first
time, be on the report cards that come out in March.
"Once the information is in front of people, they can begin to correct it," said
State Sen. C.J. Prentiss, a Cleveland Democrat, who is president of the Ohio
Legislative Black Caucus. "If you continue to bury it, nothing will happen."
In Shaker Heights, a relatively wealthy suburb, black parents have made the gap
a big issue, pushing the school district to do some of the most comprehensive
studies in the country.
"I think there was a conspiracy of silence in the past," said Reuben Harris Jr.,
a member of Caring Communities Organized for Education, a Shaker Heights parent
group. "It's still a very sensitive issue. It can be used as a weapon or a
tool."
Proficiency tests are given in five subjects - reading, writing, math, science
and citizenship - to Ohio students in grades four, six, nine and 12.
This year, the state released three years' worth of data, from 1997 to 2000. It
was requested by the Ohio Legislative Black Caucus.
Test scores increased in every grade and in nearly every subject over those
three years. But the gap between black and white students' test scores was
reduced only slightly, with steady improvement among ninth-graders but mixed
results among students in grades four and six.
The smallest gap was in writing, especially among ninth-graders. The biggest
gaps were in math and science in every grade.
Parents, educators and lawmakers have all complained about the validity of the
proficiency tests. A law passed this year will gradually replace them with new
"achievement tests."
However, the gap in scores on Ohio's proficiency tests is similar to the gap on
tests by the National Assessment of Educational Progress, which periodically
tests students across the country. Ohio schools started giving NAEP tests last
year, after an eight-year layoff, so the state is not a part of any recent
national studies.
The racial gap in NAEP test scores narrowed in the 1970s and 1980s but widened
in the 1990s, said Kati Haycock, director of the Education Trust, an advocacy
group based in Washington, D.C.
Elusive causes
Academic researchers say many factors contribute to the test-score gap, but most
concede there is no comprehensive list.
Among possible causes cited by researchers:
Poverty and everything associated with it, including poor health care.
Inadequate money and less-qualified teachers at schools with a lot of
minorities.
Crowded classes.
Inadequate books, computers and other educational resources at school and at
home.
Too little parental involvement.
Low expectations among parents, teachers and students.
But even in some affluent school districts, where poverty and other
socioeconomic problems are less pronounced, the gap still exists.
In Shaker Heights, for example, the schools are well integrated, with 51 percent
black students and 42 percent white. And residents have the 32nd-highest median
income of any school district in Ohio (out of 612), though white families are
more likely to be wealthy than black families.
Average scores for black students in Shaker Heights were higher than the state
average for black students in every subject and in every grade for the three
years of available data.
But the test-score gap between black and white students in Shaker Heights was
among the largest in the state.
For example, 49.5 percent of black fourth-graders in Shaker Heights passed the
reading proficiency test in 1999-2000, while 93 percent of the white students
passed it. Only 34.5 percent of the black ninth-graders passed all five
proficiency tests, compared with 95.5 percent of white students. Students must
eventually pass all five tests to graduate from high school.
Ronald F. Ferguson, a Harvard University researcher who recently studied Shaker
Heights, found several factors that could affect the gap.
At least 52 percent of black students in Shaker Heights live with only one
parent or neither, compared with about 12 percent of white students, according
to Ferguson's study. Mothers and fathers together average at least four years of
college in about 45 percent of black households in Shaker Heights - a high
percentage for Ohio, regardless of race - but low when compared with the 95
percent of white households in Shaker Heights.
Black students in Shaker Heights are far less likely than white students to take
high-level courses, and the overall grade-point average for black students is
about a point below the average for white students, according to Ferguson's
study.
Ferguson found that black students as a group appear to try just as hard as
white students, and they find school just as interesting. But, Ferguson wrote,
black students in Shaker Heights have not been taught the same skills as white
students, and some have different learning techniques.
Same school, different education
Roslyn Mack, a member of the Shaker Heights parent group who has a daughter in
eighth grade and a son in ninth, said the difference between advanced classes
and regular ones is like attending two different schools.
"My daughter is in advanced classes and always has been from Day One," Mack
said. "My son has been on a different track, and there is just such a profound
difference in their education."
A group of black Shaker Heights students interviewed for this story said they
often felt isolated in honors and Advanced Placement courses. The vast majority
of black students take only college-preparatory classes, which are the
lower-level classes in Shaker Heights.
"You hear it in the hall, CP is for black kids, AP is for white kids," said
Mack's son, Gabe, a freshman at Shaker Heights High School.
Reuben Harris' daughter, Aida, said that when she was in fifth grade, she was
the only black student in her class chosen to participate in an enrichment
program for gifted students.
"Just about every white in our class was pulled out, and I was the only black,"
said Aida, who graduated from Shaker Heights High School in June and now attends
Denison University, outside Columbus. "From that point on, I had all white
friends until the ninth grade."
Shaker Heights Superintendent Mark Freeman said the district has developed a
host of programs to help black students improve their test scores, including
study groups, a tutoring program run by high-achieving black students and a
group on race relations. More black students are being encouraged to take
high-level classes, and teachers are being trained to recognize different
learning styles and to have high expectations for all students, Freeman said.
Shaker Heights has also joined a group of 14 other school districts from across
the country, including Cleveland Heights-University Heights, working on ways to
narrow the test-score gap.
"I don't want to give you the idea that we have the solution," Freeman said.
"We've got a lot of people studying this, and we're doing better than most."
It will be difficult to solve the problem without knowing all the causes,
researchers said. And policymakers are far from united on possible solutions.
The newest movement in education is standards-based reform - creating high
academic standards for all students, aligning statewide curricula to the
standards and testing children often to see if they meet the standards. Ohio is
attempting this, and President Bush is pushing the concept as part of his
education package.
Researchers also point to other possible solutions:
Improved teacher training.
More parental and community involvement in schools.
Better preschool and after-school programs.
Smaller classes.
Adequate money for schools with high concentrations of minorities.
"While we are convinced that reducing the gap is both necessary and possible, we
do not have a detailed blueprint for achieving this goal, and neither does
anyone else," Christopher Jencks and Meredith Phillips wrote in their 1998 book,
"The Black-White Test Score Gap."
"Most social scientists have chosen safer topics and hoped the problem would go
away. It didn't. We can do better."
Contact Stephen Ohlemacher at:
sohlemacher@plaind.com ,
800-228-8272
© 2001 The Plain Dealer. Used with permission
Education - the entire pipeline